Curse

Operations · May 09, 2007, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Let us consider them. Carefully.

They appear as such.

[skill]Mind Burn[/skill]
[skill]Mind Freeze[/skill]
and of course...
[skill]Mind Shock[/skill]

Now, while a while ago their recharge was buffed, they still don't really see use. Let us consider why.

Each has exhaustion. Not good for a spamming skill. Then, each has secondary, conditional effects that are reliant on your current energy pool. Note the boldface parts. See how they kinda work together to gimp the skills.

We really need one of two fixes to these skills.

1) Remove the exhaustion. The sheer fact that it becomes less effective with less energy is balance enough.

2) Make the extra damage and secondary effects conditional based upon MAXIMUM energy ratings.

It is time for this. I'd love to use Mind Freeze, but I hate Exhaustion in PvP. It's not too bad in PvE where you can recharge, but in PvP, exhaustion can be a killer.

bhavv · May 09, 2007, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Agree to remove exhaustion, not agree for 2.

I think the damage needs to made so it triggers all the time regardless of energy amount, and the condition only trigger if you have more energy then target foe.

E.g. Mind Shock - Target foe suffers 106 damage. If you have more energy then target foe, that foe is knocked down.

gameshoes3003 · May 09, 2007, 01:50 AM // 01:50

These are all very powerful spells. I think exhaustion in fine. It's rationing it like you have to do for Obsidian Flame.
I would seriously like a damage buff to Mind Freeze, but if you think about moving 90% slower for 11 seconds, there's a lot more that can be done. Very little running happening.
so then
/notsigned, I think these are very powerful spells, no need to buff them.

The Great Al · May 09, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

I haven't calculated the damage, but since obsidian flame is armor ignoring, it's actually probably even better or almost as good, and it's not elite.

Curse You · May 09, 2007, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Al

I haven't calculated the damage, but since obsidian flame is armor ignoring, it's actually probably even better or almost as good, and it's not elite.

Let's assume 16 in the corresponding attribute.

Obsidian Flame = 118 damage

Mind Burn = 126 (63 + 63) + Burning for 7 seconds (98 health loss) = 224

Mind Freeze = 84 (42 + 42) + 90% slower for 11 seconds

Mind Shock = 106 (53 + 53) + Knockdown (add 25% armor penetration)

As far as I can see, these are far from weak spells, especially since Elementalists can use Energy Storage to raise their energy far above all other professions'.

lyra_song · May 09, 2007, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Imo its cheap not for you to spam it. Its cheap so you maintain the higher energy pool.

gameshoes3003 · May 09, 2007, 12:38 PM // 12:38

You can safely use these skills if you're low on energy, but have a high maximum amount of energy.

Thomas.knbk · May 09, 2007, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Mind shock sees play. It's an awesome utitlity skill that doubles as an awesome spike assist.
Mind Freeze is outclasses by other water elites. A direct comparison would be Icy Shackles, but Water Trident and Shatterstone tend to be superior as well.
These two skills don't have to be spammed at all to be effective. They're situational skills, that are used situationally.
Mind Burn is another story. This skill is pure DPS, with no added utility. In order to be effective, it DOES have to be spammed. DPS is only a threat if it's constant, and in this case you're right. The exhaustion totally gimps the skill. My suggestion would be to raise the energy cost to 15 and remove the exhaustion. 15e should be quite doable with an attunement and Glyph of Lesser Energy.
Mind Shock would be totally overpowered without exhaustion. It combines a lightning orb damage with Gale (one of the best elementalist skills, even without the 3s knockdown). Being able to spam that is nothing to laugh at.
Mind Freeze could be doable without exhaustion if they raised the energy cost, but I don't think it's a good idea considering how strong the water line already is, and that Mind Freeze compresses your skill bar (you have a perma-snare and a heavy damage nuke in one skill slot). I think it might be a bit too strong.
Mind Burn definitely needs to have its exhaustion removed. DPS that you can only apply like 1/5th of the time is a stupid concept, and they should change it. It should have its energy cost raised to prevent it from being too good.
That's my take on the mind spells.

Operations · May 09, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Mind shock sees play. It's an awesome utitlity skill that doubles as an awesome spike assist.
Mind Freeze is outclasses by other water elites. A direct comparison would be Icy Shackles, but Water Trident and Shatterstone tend to be superior as well.
These two skills don't have to be spammed at all to be effective. They're situational skills, that are used situationally.
Mind Burn is another story. This skill is pure DPS, with no added utility. In order to be effective, it DOES have to be spammed. DPS is only a threat if it's constant, and in this case you're right. The exhaustion totally gimps the skill. My suggestion would be to raise the energy cost to 15 and remove the exhaustion. 15e should be quite doable with an attunement and Glyph of Lesser Energy.
Mind Shock would be totally overpowered without exhaustion. It combines a lightning orb damage with Gale (one of the best elementalist skills, even without the 3s knockdown). Being able to spam that is nothing to laugh at.
Mind Freeze could be doable without exhaustion if they raised the energy cost, but I don't think it's a good idea considering how strong the water line already is, and that Mind Freeze compresses your skill bar (you have a perma-snare and a heavy damage nuke in one skill slot). I think it might be a bit too strong.
Mind Burn definitely needs to have its exhaustion removed. DPS that you can only apply like 1/5th of the time is a stupid concept, and they should change it. It should have its energy cost raised to prevent it from being too good.
That's my take on the mind spells.

Good points. I can see what you're saying, especially with Mind Burn. However, my point is the following, restated for clarity;

Each of these spells, as written now, become almost geometrically less effective the more you cast them, epically in PvP. While in PvE you might be able to get away with casting only one or two spells over and over (boring Searing Flames, we're looking at you), in PvP if you're not casting, you're not helping as an Ele. So it goes a lot like this with mind spells...

Cast attunements/other preparatory enchantments -> Cast Mind Spell at first available target (and gain exhaustion) -> cast other non-elite spell (either offense or utility) or two, depending on cast times -> either cast Mind spell again (if viable) or cast other spells (possibly gaining more exhaustion on top of existing) -> cast other offense/utility spells -> etc etc etc.

This results in a steadily decreasing current and maximum energy pool. The skills, especially in PvP, are self regulating to an excess as it. Removing exhaustion and then either upping the cost to 10 or upping the recharges as suggested above would still leave them as self regulating, as you eventually have to stop casting for a bit to get the most effect out of them. Now in PvE, would that mean that you could make a bar out of just these skills and a couple of utility ones? Sure, but we've already seen numerous cases of proof that you don't need a full skill bar in PvE (at least before Hard Mode). As said, people already do this in PvE with Searing Flames and Mind Blast. But that's PvE.

We already know that even if they took the exhaustion of these spells, spamming just them alone will not win the day in PvP, and that is where I'm concerned for these spells.

Ozric · May 09, 2007, 04:12 PM // 16:12

These skills don't see play for a reason, reason being that conditional. Who wants an Elite dmg skill on their bar that would only see play in the beginnings of a battle. I'd seek to lessen the req. for the conditional or remove it, but as these are high damage skills coupled with secondary effects which is quite powerful in of itself, I'd leave the exhaustion in.

Tempted to asking for a buff in damage for Mind Freeze, but it's snare is a 90% and lasts a long time so it might not be warranted. Still, it could be considered just another snare in a line full of them, so maybe a dmg buff is in order for this Elite.

While Mind Burn's burning is long, I've never considered a single-target burn to be a huge threat, and have always thought of the major dps threat of burning only in terms of the Rodgort's spells or SF,...I mean what monk is going to watch a teammate burn for over a few seconds anyway? But I'll digress to one that more familiar with pvp scenarios. As the spell is even without the conditional, I wouldn't take this on any pve outings.

Mind Shock is fine as it is excepting for the conditional which could stand an improvement. About the only time I ever use this is when a guildie wants to 1v1 me. At which time it's the funnest skill in the game.

moriz · May 09, 2007, 04:34 PM // 16:34

these skills, especiall mind shock, are similar to gale and other fast recharge, high cost skills: they require a skilled player to pull off.

a bad player will just spam them indiscrimately, exhausting themselves in a matter of seconds. a skilled player will use them at the point of maximum effect, whether to assist on a spike, helping to pull off a retreat, etc. each skill have powerful effects, but is held in check by the exhaustion condition. this allow these skills to be spammed when needed but still encourage players to use them sparingly.

increasing the energy cost is not an option, because people will just slap on attunements and GoLE, making these skills ridiculously powerful. increasing the recharge will simply weaken them, because you no longer have the option to spam them when you need to. personally, i think the damage on mind freeze should be increased and the conditional effect on mind burn to be changed to something else. other than that, there's absolutely nothing wrong with these skills.

Lydz · May 09, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

These spells are fine as they are.

Skuld · May 09, 2007, 04:42 PM // 16:42

giving mind freeze higher damage would be sweet

Thom Bangalter · May 09, 2007, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Mind shock is fine. Really, it is. Mind burn is always going to be outclassed by mind blast, savannah heat, or searing flames, simply because unless they completely retool the mind burn, these skills will be better.

Mind freeze is outclassed by icy shackles, unless you want damage, and then outclassesed by shatterstone. buffing damage gets tricky, because due to the conditional effect of the skill, if I want to snare Id rather have shackles, and if I want to do damage Id take shatterstone, and If I want both, then paying 5 energy and exhaustion is getting a little rediculous for a skill that would combine the two best water elites.

[email protected], you're partially right, but mind shock can pretty much be effectively spammed. You can just either mind shock on the spike every time and almost always instagib, or mind shock an off monk and force kills. Spamming gale almost always worked the same way.

Thomas.knbk · May 09, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operations

(snip)

Well, my point is that you don't by definition have to use a skill on recharge for it to be effective. Not at all. Shatter has a 30 sec recharge (or 25? somthing like that), but it's used maybe once every 45 to 60 seconds. Still it's a very strong enchantment removal (actually the only one that sees play exept for drain on a MoR bar). Diversion has a 12 sec recharge, but it actually becomes less effective if you use it on recharge (more predictable --> people adapt --> diversion doesn't trigger). Similarily, you can 'save' your Mind Shock for situations where it's needed. (a knockdown on a retreating target, a spike). It's actually still worth it if you don't use it that often. You should just see the exhaustion as if Arenanet put a 30 sec recharge on it, but gave you a little flexibility in when to use it: as long as the average is 30 seconds you won't get in any energy problems (provided you don't use any other exhaustion skills).
Now the problem is not that the Mind spells can't be used every 9 seconds, the problem is that Mind Freeze and Mind Burn are not worth the skill slots on a virtual 30 second recharge. Mind Freeze is outclassed by Icy Shackles and Mind Burn on a long recharge is just a stupid concept. DPS shouldn't have a long recharge. (in order for a damage skill to be viable on a long recharge the damage needs to be really high. This just leads to spike builds. Spike builds are bad). In the Freeze and Burn cases removing exhaustion is the right thing to do, because it's the only way to make them viable. A snare nowadays needs to be able to cover a target the majority of the time (icy shackles and freezing gust raised the standards here) in order to be worth it, and 11 our of 30 seconds is not even close. It should have a 15 second recharge and a 10 or 15 energy cost. (energy is not that big of a deal for ele's with the buffed GoLE and the buffed attunements). Mind Burn needs to have its damage removed (to prevent spikes), its exhaustion removed and its energy raised again to 15 or 10. I'm leaning to 10 in this case.
What a lot of people don't seem to realise is that Mind Shock is A LOT stronger than the other two. It's the only one that sees play, for a reason. A KD is a snare, an interrupt, and a complete shutdown for 2 seconds (long enough to spike someone down) all in one. It's (one of) the most versatile abilities in Guild Wars, and its cost should reflect that. Being able to use that once every 30 seconds is pretty fine.

Thom Bangalter · May 09, 2007, 04:55 PM // 16:55

I beat you thomas. and again, I disagree. You spam the shit out of mind shock and win. I don't care if I half my energy bar is gone from exhaustion, because I've probably single-handedly won the game.

Thomas.knbk · May 09, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I beat you thomas. and again, I disagree. You spam the shit out of mind shock and win. I don't care if I half my energy bar is gone from exhaustion, because I've probably single-handedly won the game.

That's basically what I was saying: It's strong enough with exhaustion and it would be bloody retarded without.

Genova · May 09, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

I think that the problem isn't there. For sure it may be too late to rework a core class but there is a design issue here. I'll try to resume the energy management of caster classes in GW (I add assassins and dervishes because I think there are more disguised casters than anything else) :
- Ritualist : nothing to say, this class is way to broken.
- Assassin : energy is gained through successful critical strikes.
- Dervish : energy is gained when enchantments end on self.
- Monk : divine favor, only works on monk spells that target an ally. It's indirect energy management through efficiency.
- Necro : soul reaping, things need to die.
- Mesmer : energy is gained through a wide variety of conditional effects on enemies. You meet the requirement, it's yours.
- Elementalist : unconditional energy gain whenever you feel tired, you're a living source.

In short, elementalist is the only class able to gain unconditional energy with their skills. And with energy storage they have far more maximum energy than other classes. What's the point ? My point is that elementalists need skills like auspicious incantation or ether signet (without the condition). A lot of their spells have a very high energy cost without means to gain this energy back efficiently. There is no skill like ether prodigy that is non-elite, something is missing.

What this means for mind spells is that with non-elite skills (linked to energy storage) that allow you to get big energy jumps (without losing it like most other casters since you have energy storage), they begin to be less conditional. I feel that elementalists aren't meant to manage a high energy pool like they do, they should spent it largely and get it back like nobody else. Some could argue that this completely prevent the use of spells to other classes, but what other class use elementalist dps other than fastcasting mesmer ?

Thomas.knbk · May 09, 2007, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Genova

- Elementalist : unconditional energy gain whenever you feel tired, you're a living source.

I'm sorry. I think your post would make more sense if this was actually true.

Operations · May 09, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Well, my point is that you don't by definition have to use a skill on recharge for it to be effective. Not at all. Shatter has a 30 sec recharge (or 25? somthing like that), but it's used maybe once every 45 to 60 seconds. Still it's a very strong enchantment removal (actually the only one that sees play exept for drain on a MoR bar). Diversion has a 12 sec recharge, but it actually becomes less effective if you use it on recharge (more predictable --> people adapt --> diversion doesn't trigger). Similarily, you can 'save' your Mind Shock for situations where it's needed. (a knockdown on a retreating target, a spike). It's actually still worth it if you don't use it that often. You should just see the exhaustion as if Arenanet put a 30 sec recharge on it, but gave you a little flexibility in when to use it: as long as the average is 30 seconds you won't get in any energy problems (provided you don't use any other exhaustion skills).
Now the problem is not that the Mind spells can't be used every 9 seconds, the problem is that Mind Freeze and Mind Burn are not worth the skill slots on a virtual 30 second recharge. Mind Freeze is outclassed by Icy Shackles and Mind Burn on a long recharge is just a stupid concept. DPS shouldn't have a long recharge. (in order for a damage skill to be viable on a long recharge the damage needs to be really high. This just leads to spike builds. Spike builds are bad). In the Freeze and Burn cases removing exhaustion is the right thing to do, because it's the only way to make them viable. A snare nowadays needs to be able to cover a target the majority of the time (icy shackles and freezing gust raised the standards here) in order to be worth it, and 11 our of 30 seconds is not even close. It should have a 15 second recharge and a 10 or 15 energy cost. (energy is not that big of a deal for ele's with the buffed GoLE and the buffed attunements). Mind Burn needs to have its damage removed (to prevent spikes), its exhaustion removed and its energy raised again to 15 or 10. I'm leaning to 10 in this case.
What a lot of people don't seem to realise is that Mind Shock is A LOT stronger than the other two. It's the only one that sees play, for a reason. A KD is a snare, an interrupt, and a complete shutdown for 2 seconds (long enough to spike someone down) all in one. It's (one of) the most versatile abilities in Guild Wars, and its cost should reflect that. Being able to use that once every 30 seconds is pretty fine.

Good points. Maybe we'd be better off with leaving Mind Shock the way it is, and removing the exhaustion from the other two? Something needs to be done with them, they are outclassed by far by other elites, and sometimes by non-elite skills as well.

At least here it's being discussed and considered. The crew over at GWO just flamed it down right away. I'm really starting to think that over 60% of their population is PvE wammos.